[Zeref]

Celebel, on 20 June 2010 - 11:33 AM, said:

I think Thaigare needs to go on the metalist now...Hes played scum so freakin many times and every time he managed to fly along just under the radar until the very end; even if hes caught its always later on...

*gets his metagame torch and pitchfork*

[Kaedan]

Thaigare, on 21 June 2010 - 11:24 AM, said:

lol no worries Thai... I had you pegged, so I won't meta you next game. ^^

[omnibahumut]

Celebel, on 20 June 2010 - 08:29 AM, said:

Not thrilled with you suggestion to throw all PM out the window lol...

Especially because in RL mafia they can at least look up during the Night phase and see who else is mafia then use hand gestures to communicate at least who they think should die. Taking that element out of the game kinda makes it even less like mafia...

PMs would still be used to introduce all the Mafia and allow them to vote together, but I would allow only votes and emoticons, to at least somewhat emulate the real thing. Give them a coupe of hours to change votes in PM, and end it. Yes, it makes it hard, but I think overall our games favor the mafia.

[Celebel]

omnibahumut, on 22 June 2010 - 11:29 AM, said:

PMs would still be used to introduce all the Mafia and allow them to vote together, but I would allow only votes and emoticons, to at least somewhat emulate the real thing. Give them a coupe of hours to change votes in PM, and end it. Yes, it makes it hard, but I think overall our games favor the mafia.

Hmm I disagree about our games favoring the mafia. The general trend has been that innocents win, and if I were to hazard a guess off the top of my head, I would guess that innocents probably win 3 out of every 4 games.

[omnibahumut]

Celebel, on 22 June 2010 - 11:52 AM, said:

Hmm I disagree about our games favoring the mafia. The general trend has been that innocents win, and if I were to hazard a guess off the top of my head, I would guess that innocents probably win 3 out of every 4 games.

And how many of them were won with a roleclaimed cop or similar?

[Celebel]

omnibahumut, on 22 June 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

And how many of them were won with a roleclaimed cop or similar?

But see that just reinforces the point that if a side needs to be nerfed, it would be the town. Or that the mafia need to be buffed to compensate.

[omnibahumut]

Celebel, on 22 June 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

But see that just reinforces the point that if a side needs to be nerfed, it would be the town. Or that the mafia need to be buffed to compensate.

Thats still the wrong way of solving the problem. If everyone is just waiting for the Cop to role-claim, then you're eliminating the main concept.

[Caidryn]

omnibahumut, on 22 June 2010 - 02:50 PM, said:

Thats still the wrong way of solving the problem. If everyone is just waiting for the Cop to role-claim, then you're eliminating the main concept.

Omni, you should really take a peek at trial of rebirth. We went the whole game with no cop roleclaims, and the innocents won entirely by dissecting the voting habits and what was said by the mafia. I think you'd be proud to see it. :3

[Celebel]

Actually, I just went back through my memory of games from Shipwrecked! to present.

Assassins!, Graveyard Mafia, and to a lesser extent Quarantine and Old Tyme Mafia.

These are the only 4 games where a roleclaimed scanner played a significant role in the Innocents winning. In all the other games, there was either no reliance on a roleclaimed scanner, or the mafia won in spite of there being a roleclaimed scanner.

The only games where the roleclaimed scanner played an absolutely pivotal role in winning for the innocents were Assassins! and Graveyard Mafia.

This post has been edited by Celebel: 22 June 2010 - 02:58 PM

[Law]

The problem for me is not that Cop+Doctor wins too many games, it's that the game stops being fun for anyone not named Cop, Doctor, or Mafia.

It becomes a 4-6 player game with pawns.

But just let things flow as they will. People will stop trusting role-claims, even with "proof" soon enough.

[Kaedan]

Yeah, I'm actually gonna be done with Mafia here until there's a game with no scanner role or no doctor. So unless Niggheart's game is like that, have fun guys.

[Celebel]

Kaedan, on 26 June 2010 - 12:07 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm actually gonna be done with Mafia here until there's a game with no scanner role or no doctor. So unless Niggheart's game is like that, have fun guys.

I understand your frustration, but having a scanner and doctor in some form or another is pretty much a necessity of mafia, just one of those things that helps make mafia what it is. So I wouldnt hold your breath for a mafia game without doctor or scanner...

And I know it sucks to get taken out to a scan, but thats going to happen at times, not much you can do about that other than bear it and move on.

[Kaedan]

I don't mind if there is scanner OR a doctor. But the combination of both has been abused again and again by the players on this forum.

It's also the fact that people just wait for someone to roleclaim scanner, then as Law said, it's just a few people playing.

This post has been edited by Kaedan: 26 June 2010 - 10:21 AM

[Celebel]

Alright well lets brainstorm ways to make the cop+doctor combo less godlike.

Off the top of my head, we can weaken the scanner by:

Introducing the Miller role more often.

Introducing the Godfather (as far as scanning is concerned) role more often.

Altering the Cop to a different version such as Insane, Paranoid, or Naive.

Altering the Cop role to a "Macho Cop", which cannot be protected. (This one sounds like one of the easiest ways)


We can weaken the doctor by doing things like:

Making him roleblock his target while protecting him.


We can derail the cop/doctor combo by including roleblockers on the mafia team more often.

We can also introduce the Paranoid Gun Owner role more often to deter mass scanning.

[Kaedan]

oh, actually, I love the macho cop idea. But here's what I suggest:

Macho Cop: Learn the role of your target. However, should you role-claim, you cannot be protected.

This keeps the scanner and doctor in the game, but breaks the machine and keeps people from abusing it. Nice thinking Celebel.

I do also agree we should try using the Godfather more often as well.

This post has been edited by Kaedan: 26 June 2010 - 11:03 AM

[Celebel]

Yeah theres really a lot of ways already existing to mitigate the coptor (cop+doctor) combo. Its just a matter of making sure to include some of them in games from now on.

[Caidryn]

Lol. Well, I was going to keep it a secret, but as long as we're discussing methods to fight roleclaiming...

Reaper Veilpiercer: Begins the game with 2 AP, seperate from the normal AP pool. Does not gain AP every morning. (Excluding gift of innocence)

Pierce - 1 AP - Kill selected target. Ublockable by protect and night of peace.

*Cough* Lets see people start roleclaiming in my games. :3 I love working with the AP system. So easy to balance. Of course, I'll add flavor to it. This is just the quick rough draft of my roleclaiming countermeasure.

This post has been edited by Caidryn: 27 June 2010 - 02:05 PM

[Celebel]

Caidryn, on 27 June 2010 - 02:01 PM, said:

Lol. Well, I was going to keep it a secret, but as long as we're discussing methods to fight roleclaiming...

Reaper Veilpiercer: Begins the game with 2 AP, seperate from the normal AP pool. Does not gain AP every morning. (Excluding gift of innocence)

Pierce - 1 AP - Kill selected target. Ublockable by protect and night of peace.

*Cough* Lets see people start roleclaiming in my games. :3 I love working with the AP system. So easy to balance. Of course, I'll add flavor to it. This is just the quick rough draft of my roleclaiming countermeasure.

Hmm but does that mean the single target 1 AP block still affects him?

[Caidryn]

Celebel, on 27 June 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

Hmm but does that mean the single target 1 AP block still affects him?

yep. :3 If you can pick him out of the crowd and you keep him alive, then yeah, feel free to block him. But now that I think about it, I may make it so that if scanned they come up as a normal reaper. This prevents a scanner roleclaiming the moment they find the piercer without fear of reprisal.

This post has been edited by Caidryn: 27 June 2010 - 02:25 PM

[omnibahumut]

I will never introduce any sort of points/AP system to any of my mafia games. Also: I am back from my internet hiatus.

I spent the weekend in Pittsburgh ;3