[sickel]

This is similar, though not identical, to a topic originally created by DeathSaved back in August of last year. His topic focused more on add-ons in general, while this one focuses more on the necessity and "elitism" caused by such tools, in light of the new information on party mechanics.

With all of the good news, there has to be a bit of bad, and so here is my take on what we've just been told. One of the key details surrounding the game this time around is your location within the "party." More than what we saw with FFXI, I'm sure we'll be seeing multiple enemies running around, and hate management is sure to become quite complex. In some cases, I'm confident we'll see two tanks, or even two and an off-tank to manage hate. However, the main point is that that in order to guarantee the most efficient performance of your party, it'll be ideal to have people at the most efficient locations at all time.

We saw this happen with ranger, in one of the FFXI updates, where ranged attacks because effected in strength and accuracy depending only on the distance of the ranger. With FFXI, distance is only one of the factors that goes into calculating battle performance, along with your range and positioning (in regards to your targets).

Now here's what bothers me: the possibility (and it is a likely one, I'm sure) of development for add-ons and 3rd party tools, allowing you to see where you should be at all times for the best damage. Hey, if you want to be doing better damage as your thaumaturge, you should be in the center of that purple circle. Wait, no now the circle moved, quick, follow it! The problem with add-ons, beyond this detail, is that many are PC-only. With this being a multi-platform game, its important to ensure that content and gameplay experiences are roughly the same from system to system, but I can't help but feel that, especially with FFXIV being a PC-primary developed game, players will develop a sense of elitism and disdain toward PS3 (and maybe 360) users, who don't have these tools.

Do you think this will arise as an issue? And if so, how do you think we, the fans, along with SE, can or should go about combatting such an issue?

[Riza]

I'm pretty sure SE understand this...and if addons were allowed..which i doubt they will and I hope they are not..(because addons make stuff too easy)...i'm sure they'd make a way for them to be available on the PS3 version. The PS3 is like a computer rather than a console. You can download things on your computer for the PS3 and put them on it. However, a new problem arrises: how will they code addons for the PS3? It would be to complicated probably to make PC and PS3 compatible addons. Unless SE came out with a template/ tutorial on developing addons..
Some programming languages are cross-platform, if the code used for the stuff like, maps, minimaps, hotbars and such are in such a language...(which maybe they are since its cross platform already) then it could be possible.

I highly doubt SE will allow addons at all, but I'm not positive...I know the interface can be moved around, so who knows, maybe they will allow some form of addons.

This post has been edited by Riza: 11 March 2010 - 03:30 PM

[sickel]

Hmm, you've got a point that the PS3 is more capable of accepting add-ons than the PS2, yet surely, there are likely to be differences that exist between the consoles. I'm not so sure that SE will encourage the use of add-ons, as their mindset with FFXI was to warn or even ban players caught using 3rd party tools. They could have an entirely different mindset this time around, but I'm not so convinced.

I think personally, I'd rather not see any development of such tools (not for where you should be standing, etc.), but I'm not foolish enough to believe they won't be developed if they are possible.

[Yop]

No mods? Seriously? Want to make your chat box bigger? Want to move where it is. Move your bar of buttons. move the minimap. Pretty much as long as they include what 99% of the modding community would make already integrated into the UI then there wont be a need for 3rd part mods.

And mods don't make things too easy. As been mentioned in other threads, just have a checker for 3rd party programs and the rest is just scripts being run inside the UI. Sorry I like changing the colors of things or changing where stuff is located etc. If that isn't in the game then I will find ways to do it elsewhere. (edit2- this does not mean I will run a 3rd party program to move stuff)

edit- Threatmeters , damage meters, etc, for WoW as an example are just displays for the same thing you could just read out of the combat log. If SE doesn't want these things to appear in game then they can just lock that info out of the available scripts, not tough at all honestly.

This post has been edited by Yop: 11 March 2010 - 03:43 PM

[Burai]

I'm against Addons of any kind, for now.

You might do lesser dmg for not standing perfectly, but standing perfectly is 'elitism' and not that much of a neccesity. Yes, you will need to know where your position is, but not by the milimeters. You will develop a feeling on where to stand with your class eventually.

I have not decided wether I will buy XIV for the PS3, PC, or maybe even both. Elitist people that prefer PC-only members into their party/raid/guild will become an issue when addons will be in use (if not properly made for both platforms).

Btw, being an elitist isn't a bad thing, but expecting everyone else to be one too is a no go.

[sickel]

Yop, on 11 March 2010 - 03:40 PM, said:

No mods? Seriously? Want to make your chat box bigger? Want to move where it is. Move your bar of buttons. move the minimap. Pretty much as long as they include what 99% of the modding community would make already integrated into the UI then there wont be a need for 3rd part mods.

And mods don't make things too easy. As been mentioned in other threads, just have a checker for 3rd party programs and the rest is just scripts being run inside the UI. Sorry I like changing the colors of things or changing where stuff is located etc. If that isn't in the game then I will find ways to do it elsewhere. (edit2- this does not mean I will run a 3rd party program to move stuff)

edit- Threatmeters , damage meters, etc, for WoW as an example are just displays for the same thing you could just read out of the combat log. If SE doesn't want these things to appear in game then they can just lock that info out of the available scripts, not tough at all honestly.

I think you misunderstood what I meant - I don't care either way if mods are developed for modifying fonts, damage trackers, etc. What I do care about are mods that will tell you where to stand, and basically direct you on how to play. In my opinion, tools that keep track of exp/hour, damage/second, whatever, aren't really doing much harm, as if you really wanted to, you could calculate those things on your own pretty easily, and knowing them doesn't really kill anyone. On the other hand, a circle or marker on your map that tells you which location you should be at each second is a bit overdoing it in my mind.

[Athaya]

I'm sure they will be developed. Nothing we can do about it. I just hope SE will be a lot more proactive towards getting rid of these cheaters when these tools do start appearing. Once the PS3 players get their hands on the game they'll be fine. I for one can't wait to go through the learning curve. For those who feel they need tools more power to you. I hope you get caught and booted!!

[Inuisonu]

I'm thinking SE wants to make the game equally enjoyable for both systems. They don't want to favor one over the other. With that, I'd like to see that mods available be available through SE. Third-party mods would only be implemented if SE approves them. Doing so would also make them available to both systems as a requirement. Hopefully, at the start up of the game, they will have a means of browsing a mod database for both versions, so that either can just get them while in game and let them install themselves with ease. This way, there won't be any dissonance between players.

That's a hope anyway. I'm curious of how SE will deal with mods for the PS3 though. But the elitism will really depend on how end-game will feel. Hopefully, the game will function in a way that players will like it better without extraneous tools to 'get the most out of their skill/class'. Personally, I'd prefer to avoid manic obsessed with being the best.


It will be up to SE to provide plenty of interface options for personalizing gameplay to match their class system's depth.

This post has been edited by Inuisonu: 11 March 2010 - 04:02 PM

[Paxeus]

LoL, Of course, this will surely rise an issue. Sorry, but I don't call that kind of programme "elitism". It's a programme for players who don't have enough confidence in their own skill, or are not even skill enough to play the game fair and square.

Real men don't use Add-ons.

[Mendorian]

Ethics-wise, I don't see much of a problem with addons. Legit add-ons, mind you.

Legit means: The addons show only what the user would have been able to see anyway, just making it more accessible. For instance by parsing the combat log, which is what 99% of all WoW addons doing.

What has been named as an example by the OP, getting a perfect distance and position, would require the server to send your exact location relative to the enemy (1-360° as well as the radius). FFXIV would be the first MMO to do that, and it wouldn't make much sense anyway. The only other way to do that would be through texture hacks. Let's say that there is a texture that highlights the ground below a targeted mob - exchange that texture with one that has distance and angle markers, et voila. However, having played a THF in FFXI, I doubt anyone could sink that low and make it past level 30.

Also, getting addons to run on the PS3 shouldn't be a problem at all thanks to USB sticks.

Still, I doubt that Square Enix would allow addons. There is a good reason for that, too - RAM. Take a look at the average WoW endgame raider. Including all databases (for instance, for the Auction House and the likes), it's not uncommon to have 50-100MB of system RAM allocated solely to addons. In times where the average gamer has 2-4GB RAM, this isn't much of a problem. But since the PS3 is more than limited in these regards (256MB graphics, 256MB all-purpose-RAM), that would get problematic. So, should they include an addon system, it would probably be very limited.

Then, there's the problem with resolutions. Addon designers would have to keep TVs in mind, with overscan and all that stuff, especially on SDTVs.

No, I really don't think there will be addons. But, hey, maybe SE will surprise me ^^

[Lusitan]

is just me or everyone in here thinks addons are just things like Omen, SCT, DBM, etc...

I dont know what world u guys been in the last 10 years or so but Addons can be so many other things, like Skillet, bartender, Auctioneer, WIM, etc...

Now tell me in what way the last ones will affect the way u play or perform ingame, Stop Whinning, addons can and will eventually make the company that creates the game introduce better or improve existant ingame features.

On a personal side i would love to se addons as long as it is for cosmetic or maybe simplifying already existant features.

i can almost be certain that the crafting panel will be basic, whats wrong with an addon that can make it simpler and more enjoyable to use.

Think before u complain.

This post has been edited by Lusitan: 11 March 2010 - 04:26 PM

[Burai]

It's not complaining, it's giving an opinion.

This post has been edited by Burai: 11 March 2010 - 04:44 PM

[Lusitan]

Burai, on 11 March 2010 - 04:44 PM, said:

It's not complaining, it's giving an opinion.

i wasnt specifically directing my reply to the OP, it was direct towards the general public that disagrees with addons like yourself.

i can still read and actually understood that the OP was refering to addons that tell you how to play, and i support him on that, but i also support addons that dont affect gameplay.

So can u tell me exactly why u dont want any kind of addons, in what why cosmetic addons, will give me advantage over you?

Open-mind or better understanding of what u reply to can be wonderfull.

This post has been edited by Lusitan: 11 March 2010 - 04:54 PM

[Burai]

I did not state cosmetic adons would give an advantage, I didn't even mention cosmetic addons.

Cosmetic addons don't give advantages, but I am still not a fan of those either. This is because I like to play a game how it is made, so no modifying on any part of the game. Why? Principe I guess.

I know where I was replying on perfectly. I did not complain about anything, I was giving my opinion on the addons part.

[Paxeus]

Lusitan, on 11 March 2010 - 04:25 PM, said:

is just me or everyone in here thinks addons are just things like Omen, SCT, DBM, etc...

I dont know what world u guys been in the last 10 years or so but Addons can be so many other things, like Skillet, bartender, Auctioneer, WIM, etc...

Now tell me in what way the last ones will affect the way u play or perform ingame, Stop Whinning, addons can and will eventually make the company that creates the game introduce better or improve existant ingame features.

On a personal side i would love to se addons as long as it is for cosmetic or maybe simplifying already existant features.

i can almost be certain that the crafting panel will be basic, whats wrong with an addon that can make it simpler and more enjoyable to use.

Think before u complain.

What the OP says is about Add-ons that make things "easier", like telling the best place to gain the maximum distance effect, not cosmetic Add-ons.

If the game implements that kind of helping-tool add-ons, what's the point of adding a new feature like distance effect if everyone can easily adjust the distance by using add-ons and always get the maximum effect out of it? I'm not going to talk about players advantage/disadvantage, but what I want to say is that something is fun because it requires skills and training. Imagine and compare, how great it feels to be able to maximize the skill effect with your own ability vs. by add-ons' "order".

Sorry, maybe I think too deep for you to follow my point.

This post has been edited by Paxeus: 11 March 2010 - 05:43 PM

[Lusitan]

Burai, on 11 March 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

I'm against Addons of any kind, for now.

im sorry what, again

Paxeus, on 11 March 2010 - 05:03 PM, said:

What the OP says is about Add-ons that make things "easier", like telling the best place to gain the maximum distance effect, not cosmetic Add-ons.

If the game implements that kind of helping-tool add-ons, what's the point of adding a new feature like distance effect if everyone can easily adjust the distance by using add-ons and always get the maximum effect out of it? I'm not going to talk about players advantage/disadvantage, but what I want to say is that something is fun because it requires skills and training. Imagine and compare, how great it feels to be able to maximize the skill effect with your own ability vs. by add-ons' "order".

Sorry, maybe I think too deep for you to follow my point.

Read before you think. => and think smart before you complain.

if u read all thread, i would prolly forgive you

just joking, but i did mention what u said

[Burai]

Does that one sentence say I see a disadvantage in cosmetic addons? No. It states I am against any kind of addon use (which, yay, includes cosmetic addons).

[Bodok]

Putting the whole PS3 vs. PC subject aside, I don't mind cosmetic add ons. But addons that would tell you where to stand, or what attack to use, or a exact timeline of when a boss will use a move etc. I am against these types of addons. IMO they tend to make players less skilled. Instead of learning what to do, you have a program telling you what to do.

[Paxeus]

Lusitan, on 11 March 2010 - 05:08 PM, said:

if u read all thread, i would prolly forgive you

just joking, but i did mention what u said

If Skillet, bartender, Auctioneer, WIM are cosmetic add-ons then, I apologize. I misunderstood you. But I'm sure, not everyone on this thread is familiar with those names.

But your "Think before u complain" is adding fire to the thread, dude. I've read all the thread before your post and found no unreasonable thread. They're just saying what they feel, so it would be great if you can edit that line out.

This post has been edited by Paxeus: 11 March 2010 - 05:43 PM

[Lusitan]

Bodok, on 11 March 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

Putting the whole PS3 vs. PC subject aside, I don't mind cosmetic add ons. But addons that would tell you where to stand, or what attack to use, or a exact timeline of when a boss will use a move etc. I am against these types of addons. IMO they tend to make players less skilled. Instead of learning what to do, you have a program telling you what to do.

i couldnt had said it better myself.

Bodok, on 11 March 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

Putting the whole PS3 vs. PC subject aside, I don't mind cosmetic add ons. But addons that would tell you where to stand, or what attack to use, or a exact timeline of when a boss will use a move etc. I am against these types of addons. IMO they tend to make players less skilled. Instead of learning what to do, you have a program telling you what to do.

i couldnt had said it better myself.