[Jackel]

Hey Gang,


Some of us on the staff have been looking into expanding on the current user groups we have in place (members, moderators, admins) to include a wider range of site options for those who meet certain criteria.
The idea is that there are currently a number of staff only functions we have in place that we think could be opened up to the sites visitors for greater use.

Features like the Shoutbox have long been since staff only and while the chatroom is a great way to socialize - this might offer another avenue for communication between members. We're not looking to unlock the entire site for everyone but rather change things up so people have more options than they currently do.

The plan as it stands right now is not to remove or demote anyone or their permissions.

• At no time will you lose access to what you already have.
• Nothing we're looking to change revolves around money or donations.

Currently there's no difference between what a member with a single post can do compared to that of someone with 1000+. We think the more active members might benefit from expanded options so that's where the focus is going to be for most of these changes.


Onto the next topic:

We have actively been trying to get many of the suggestions you guys put out there into motion. We have a few different people from within Curse looking into both design aspects of the site as well as software and feature upgrades and adjustments. Keep in mind Core staff have limited access and options when it comes to these things. They simply must run their course. We're hoping to hear back about potential contests (rewards?) we might be able to offer down the road as well.

[Suirieko]

Great news.

[Savalithos]

Shoutbox fun for everyone

[Finnalie Prelúd]

But yet.. not everyone =p. Sounds interesting, I just hope it doesn't lead to pointless posts in an attempt to unlock a feature.

[Jackel]

Finnalie Prelúd, on 17 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

But yet.. not everyone =p. Sounds interesting, I just hope it doesn't lead to pointless posts in an attempt to unlock a feature.

It requires "Approved" posts as a slight counter measure. Meaning anything deemed spam worthy or of that nature won't benefit the user in question. :D

[Finnalie Prelúd]

Jackel, on 17 January 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

It requires "Approved" posts as a slight counter measure. Meaning anything deemed spam worthy or of that nature won't benefit the user in question. :D

Haha woot Sounds good! I figured you guys would think of something.

This post has been edited by Finnalie Prelúd: 17 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

[Mycroft]

Woohoo!

[Idlehand]

Hmmmm Messenger? Makes me feel I have to start offering Happy Endings... :)

[Holy Dragoon]

well this is fancy!

[molotovzav]

I'm not the most active person for sure, I mean I joined right at FFXIV being mentioned at E3, after following Rapture as much as anyone could lol. But even not being the most active, I think this is awesome, should always reward those in the community that do more. Hopefully though the posts will be productive and not just "got up to 2000 by arguing" but that's why I like FFXIVCORE ultimately, even when the game was going, people weren't arguing here, that was for the official forums. Hopefully when ARR is released there will be lots of conversation going on here, for those who don't want to always deal with the arguments of the official forums. (Not saying arguments don't happen, just less often, and honestly any fansites arguments are less stupid than the official forums for some reason across multiple games)

[vellauno]

Finnalie Prelúd, on 17 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

But yet.. not everyone =p. Sounds interesting, I just hope it doesn't lead to pointless posts in an attempt to unlock a feature.

THIS!!!

Finnalie Prelúd hit the nail on the head with this one. In this forum topic alone, I count 6 posts prior to this one that contributed nothing useful to the conversation. I don't think the posts are punish worthy, but certainly not worthy of 'increasing' any kind of benefits. You make features that are unlocked exclusively through post count and suddenly you have a torrent of people posting as many useless comments as possible to increase their privileges/reputation/title. I highly dislike features unlocked because post count (and that even includes the current title 'ranks' or even post count # that are present even though they don't do anything).

If you really want to implement such a system and avoid it being bloated with every bozo who wanders in here, consider better ways to increase rank. Perhaps base it on a point system with a few criteria granting points such as:

1) Months as a member of the forums
2) Number of weeks OR days during which posts were made (An active poster is likely posting at least once a week). I think number of weeks a post was made is a better way to judge activity than number of days where a post was made, but both ways are fine in my opinion.
3) MAYBE Include a rating/rep system in which posters can be ranked up/down for helpful/useless posts. Make sure this option is only available to people who have already proven they are active valuable members of the community.
4) Wiki Contribution
5) Approved Guide/FAQ contribution

DO NOT reward

1) Post count. It encourages lousy posts like "first", "Bump", "+1" or "Cool" and small useless sentences like "I agree", "good job", "I hate this" and other bloat remarks that make people have to wade through useless comments that do not contribute anything useful or meaningful to the conversation. So many forums reward spamming while punishing those who only chose to contribute valuable quality content, something I completely disagree with.

2) Posts per hour/minute. I think that one post per week is a good way to determine if someone is an active poster or not. Some people may say one post per day is better, but I would argue that many valuable members only post when they think they have something valuable to contribute, and that certainly does not happen every day. Anything LESS than number of days where a post was made is encouraging spamming the boards again though.

This post has been edited by vellauno: 17 January 2013 - 05:54 PM

[Jackel]

The settings have already been put in place, sorry.

To clear up some concerns though:

There is a reputation system in place. It's just as vulnerable to abuse as single word count posting if not more so. Tracking spam posts isn't an issue. Users can report each post they think might be in violation of the rules. Backtracking and questioning valid rep ups as opposed to someone just spamming it is slightly more complicated.

Date of registration is also not in the books. We're looking at active users as opposed to ones that have been around a certain date. That doesn't mean people are losing options by any means - nothing was taken away from a single member, simply that those who meet a certain level of activity on the site will have a few more communication tools at their disposal. It would hardly be fair to new and active users we potentially stand to gain as the game nears closer to each phase and ultimately a release state.

Wiki and Guide/Tutorial contributions sound nice but the game isn't live right now and won't be without an NDA for some time. Aside from not even being able to check the validity of such things it would be very difficult to even get something rolling without access to any of the information needed to author such submissions.

At the present time the Shoutbox is the only additional feature that's active. The rest will depend on if/when we see the redesign and upgrades we're looking at getting. Managing a point system is a great way to balance things out but currently there is no "Fair" way to handle such a task save for someone on the staff rating everything a user might contribute towards said point system.

Again, I'm very sorry that the way we have things wasn't rolled out in a way you'd have liked it to be. Some of these issues we've been going back and forth with as staff since '11.

The shoutbox was a feature originally intended for all users but had been shutdown for staff only. If it proves to be an issue we'll address it. If the situation calls for it to be open to all or none then we'll explore those options.

[vellauno]

Jackel, on 17 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

The settings have already been put in place, sorry.

To clear up some concerns though:

There is a reputation system in place. It's just as vulnerable to abuse as single word count posting if not more so. Tracking spam posts isn't an issue. Users can report each post they think might be in violation of the rules. Backtracking and questioning valid rep ups as opposed to someone just spamming it is slightly more complicated.

This could be mitigated by only allowing people with a certain reputation/post count to rank up or down. If it requires nothing, Someone could make as many forum accounts as they want to rep someone up or down.

Quote

Those who meet a certain level of activity on the site will have a few more communication tools at their disposal. It would hardly be fair to new and active users we potentially stand to gain as the game nears closer to each phase and ultimately a release state.

People like me will take a VERY long time to get access to these 'additional communication tools' as I refuse to make posts that are anything other informative (in my opinion at least). On the other hand, if I go to every post on these forums and post a short sentence about how I agree or disagree with whatever the OP had stated, I am suddenly given more privileges even though I am just bloating the forums with useless comments (but not useless enough to get my post removed, thus getting rewarded for my spam).

Quote

Wiki and Guide/Tutorial contributions sound nice but the game isn't live right now and won't be without an NDA for some time. Aside from not even being able to check the validity of such things it would be very difficult to even get something rolling without access to any of the information needed to author such submissions.

This is more of a future feature kind of suggestion. Sites like gamefaqs seem to be able to filter out useless FAQs just fine. Just get some trusted forum members to have the right to approve/refuse submissions.

Quote

At the present time the Shoutbox is the only additional feature that's active. The rest will depend on if/when we see the redesign and upgrades we're looking at getting. Managing a point system is a great way to balance things out but currently there is no "Fair" way to handle such a task save for someone on the staff rating everything a user might contribute towards said point system.

As I said, I think rating could easily be extended to members who have already proven themselves (such as by having a high rating themselves).

Quote

Again, I'm sorry that the way we have things wasn't rolled out in a way you'd have liked it to be. The shoutbox was a feature originally intended for all users but had been shutdown for staff only. If it proves to be an issue we'll address it. If the situation calls for it to be open to all or none then we'll explore those options.

I am not angry or anything and I understand you are limited to the tools you have available to you (and are at the mercy of Curse to some degree as well as to what you want implemented). Quite simply, the biggest problem I have is that quantity is certainly NOT of greater value than quality. In fact, for many people I see posting on countless forums, quantity often leads to a decrease in quality, and FFXIVCore is rewarding people for it (some mass posters do in fact post many quality comments though).

I am not about to blanket the forums with as many useless posts as I can to get access to a better title, more epeen trough a high post count number, or access to the shoutbox, but I guarantee you that FFXIV core is encouraging people who would otherwise not post to make useless comments to increase their privileges. This DOES take something away from me, it encourages a decrease in the quality of the forums.

This post has been edited by vellauno: 17 January 2013 - 06:35 PM

[Jackel]

The forum software doesn't allow for individual users to have access to many of the specific site features. They're simply tied to a user group. Thus making a bunch of user groups with certain permissions based on certain reputation and post count / join date would certainly lead to a bigger headache than it needs to be. Especially because this argument could extend to the reputation system as well. Someone might very well have issues that they need to meet a certain duration or post count simply to vote up or down anothers post.
Multiple accounts are against the site rules as well. While it's always possible to get by certain restrictions, if the staff does it's job then this shouldn't be an issue. Especially since it just leads to a ban anyway and thus a removal of all posted content in general.

As I've said the post count is based on "Approved" posts. Nothing deleted or spam oriented goes towards the count. As long as the staff does their part and users flag content they think needs to be looked at there should never be a spam issue.

In regards to quality of posting that's an entirely different story. Someone who takes pride in only posting when they truly feel they have something to contribute might look at another users valid post as nothing more than filler. The opposite applies as well - Many times the long thought out posts get reported as people get the impression they're being talked down to or trolled. Despite the site rules stating no "image only" posts I've had to do just that many times in the technical support threads. Forums like those often get a wide range of posting topics and tend to have a greater chance to get rep ups than other forums. It's just something that comes with the nature of the threads.

I can't change someone's take on things so I won't try - I do take your last statement to heart though. We're encouraging activity in general and nothing more. If users find that what's being posted is no longer of interest to them all I can offer is an apology. If it turns out to be nothing more than senseless posting we'll react as needed. To be under the assumption the site will be consumed with filler posts all to get access to the shoutbox is a little disheartening. We like to think we handle issues as they arise in a quick and concise manner.

You're not being denied a "privilege" because you don't meet certain conditions. The Shoutbox is hardly an advantage over something else. If the features that were adjusted allowed for longer posts or edit times, quicker uploading and image options then I could see the argument. The way it stands right now is that another feature is usable to certain user groups. No disadvantage is then in place for those who do NOT have access to it. You can still post - email - pm and Chat.

Please keep in mind that we're limited to what the forum software can do in it's current state. The Core is not an independent website that we can adjust and tinker with at will. We have people in place that we must get approval from before we can move in the direction we'd like to go.

Keep the feedback coming though. These are the types of things we've long been wanting users to throw at us.

[vellauno]

Despite how my post may seem a bit negative, I am overall happy with the site and understand and even support the reasoning for the shoutbox to be restricted(it is an unfortunate necessity along with restricting registration to the site to those who are approved by an admin). Take my post as feedback/suggestions, not as disappointment. I just wish there was a better way to filter those got extra privileges... no... scratch that... I wish there was no need to filter privileges due to abuse but that would require a perfect world. This site has very little trolling and I like the community here (a side effect of the FF community in general). Even when things get busy again once ARR launches, the generally higher maturity and respect level of those who are in the FF community tend to make places like the FFXIV core forums one of the more pleasant forums to visit. The greatest threat to these forums tend to be the people who join them only with the implicit goal to spam or troll, not the people who plan to use the forums for FF related communication.

[Jackel]

vellauno, on 17 January 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

Despite how my post may seem a bit negative, I am overall happy with the site and understand and even support the reasoning for the shoutbox to be restricted(it is an unfortunate necessity along with restricting registration to the site to those who are approved by an admin). Take my post as feedback/suggestions, not as disappointment. I just wish there was a better way to filter those got extra privileges... no... scratch that... I wish there was no need to filter privileges due to abuse but that would require a perfect world. This site has very little trolling and I like the community here (a side effect of the FF community in general). Even when things get busy again once ARR launches, the generally higher maturity and respect level of those who are in the FF community tend to make places like the FFXIV core forums one of the more pleasant forums to visit. The greatest threat to these forums tend to be the people who join them only with the implicit goal to spam or troll, not the people who plan to use the forums for FF related communication.

We'll certainly take it as feedback. We've been running the same setup here for a longtime so I understand both sides of a possible change to how thing look or operate.

The way it stands right now is that it's a what you see is what you get sort of configuration. There aren't any "aces up the sleeves" so to speak with how we approach these things and sometimes that can be looked upon in a bad way. We've love to offer a much quicker and permanent solution but we'll just have to see where things go from here on out.

Much of the success or failure or the site and community obviously falls on if the game does well or not. I guess that's the one aspect we can't control right now. Hopefully the beta phases give us enough of a warning on what to expect post launch that the site can adjust accordingly.

[Mycroft]

Another thing which Jackel hasn't mentioned, is that posting in some of the Core's sub-fora does not register towards the post count. Despite my disagreeing with Zyuu about this, it worked to get those who just stuck around the Introductions forum (back in 2010), out of it and into the broader realm of sub-fora. This was because suddenly their posts didn't count towards their visible post count.

There are a few other sub-fora with the same restriction, I believe they are Culture and Media, and a one or two others which I can't recall.

As such, while we can still get those one-liners, or single word posts, we have some mechanics in place to prevent people from progressing their post count by doing such.
It is of course sad that those mechanics had to be implemented in the first place.

[Azrealle]

Looking forward to seeing what changes may arise on the site, anything to revitalize the community is great. I feel that Core is the strongest lingering community for this game and I would like to see it continue to be so!

[Trageu]

Always nice to see improvements!

[Suirieko]

Mycroft, on 18 January 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Another thing which Jackel hasn't mentioned, is that posting in some of the Core's sub-fora does not register towards the post count. Despite my disagreeing with Zyuu about this, it worked to get those who just stuck around the Introductions forum (back in 2010), out of it and into the broader realm of sub-fora. This was because suddenly their posts didn't count towards their visible post count.

There are a few other sub-fora with the same restriction, I believe they are Culture and Media, and a one or two others which I can't recall.

As such, while we can still get those one-liners, or single word posts, we have some mechanics in place to prevent people from progressing their post count by doing such.
It is of course sad that those mechanics had to be implemented in the first place.

If I recall Zyuu wanted the entire Lounge to not count toward the post count total > >. I vehemently disagreed with this.