[Dionysi]

In FFXI, certain races had stats which were higher or lower than others, and this scaled with others. While Humes were balanced across the stats, by endgame Galkas had the most HP/VIT, while having low mana and mnd - does this apply to the new races? I saw a chart where it stood true, but does it stay that way as you continue to level, i.e with the XIV version of Galka's having the most HP and defensive power? And I understand that the game is going through a large overhaul, but the uniqueness of the races in this aspect almost seems an essential piece of their legacy. Let me know what you do!

[shojikun]

There wont be any different in stats wise, only minisicule and is not even worth over it.

[Dionysi]

If stats are the differentiating factor, what distinguises the races from one another beyond their models?

[Jackel]

Dionysi, on 27 December 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

If stats are the differentiating factor, what distinguises the races from one another beyond their models?

Lore and personal character development? :)

[Kolossus]

Dionysi, on 26 December 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

In FFXI, certain races had stats which were higher or lower than others, and this scaled with others. While Humes were balanced across the stats, by endgame Galkas had the most HP/VIT, while having low mana and mnd - does this apply to the new races? I saw a chart where it stood true, but does it stay that way as you continue to level, i.e with the XIV version of Galka's having the most HP and defensive power? And I understand that the game is going through a large overhaul, but the uniqueness of the races in this aspect almost seems an essential piece of their legacy. Let me know what you do!

The XI Dev Team has been discussing removing the racial stat differences altogether, or lessening the gap between them. Hello stat-overhaul.

/facepalm

[Pseudopsia]

I'm one of those people who doesn't like having to choose a race based on stats to be ideal for a main class.

This is a game, it's not real life, so there isn't a reason why all the races can't have the same stats. If the game was close to real life then Lalafells wouldn't even be considered for a melee class.

Some other games use racial skills to distinguish the races rather than stats, however in my opinion this not needed.

This post has been edited by Pseudopsia: 27 December 2012 - 11:11 AM

[Colt47]

Stat differences is a carry over from the pen and paper genre of yor. While it helped define different races in those games it also limited the viable class options for those races. Honestly, there isn't anything wrong per-say with having one race being better at something than another, it's just that MMOs tend to go for a wide audience and thus the designers want to provide as many cosmetic choices as possible as opposed to options. Also, depending on what games a particular individual has played they may have a drastically different idea of what kinds of roles a specific race should favor.

Edit: On a more personal note I actually am in favor of races having a best role, as it makes the choice of race a lot more meaningful than what the majority of current MMOs offer. However, I'm wondering if this is a mind set brought about from all the time I've spent playing RPGs from TSR, Palladium books, and Wizards of the Coast.

This post has been edited by Colt47: 27 December 2012 - 01:25 PM

[ShindaUsagi]

Colt47, on 27 December 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Stat differences is a carry over from the pen and paper genre of yor. While it helped define different races in those games it also limited the viable class options for those races. Honestly, there isn't anything wrong per-say with having one race being better at something than another, it's just that MMOs tend to go for a wide audience and thus the designers want to provide as many cosmetic choices as possible as opposed to options. Also, depending on what games a particular individual has played they may have a drastically different idea of what kinds of roles a specific race should favor.

Edit: On a more personal note I actually am in favor of races having a best role, as it makes the choice of race a lot more meaningful than what the majority of current MMOs offer. However, I'm wondering if this is a mind set brought about from all the time I've spent playing RPGs from TSR, Palladium books, and Wizards of the Coast.

Your reasoning matches my own. I believe it truly is a preference popular by the pen and paper crowd. Stat differentials were just a way of life. Of course this fact never seemed to deter entire parties from wanting to be Drow, lol.

I understand both sides of this argument. As ridiculous/cute as it is to see a lalafell in paladin armor I suppose they shouldn't be penalized for doing so. Besides, sometimes the games just get it wrong anyway. Mithra...poor beastmasters? I'm still trying to understand that one. Charisma be damned.

[meathooks333]

The reason racial stat differences exist in table top RPGs is because it's completely up to the player to decide how effective his stats actually are. Since you can attempt anything as long as the GM allows it (and he should if he's a good one) there is no end to your options. Want to make a halfling fighter? No prob, just know that going in swinging may get you killed. You would need a bit more strategy or finesse, but there are ways to facilitate that and it makes for an extremely interesting character.

With FFXIV, the gameplay is not based around your characters story. Not saying story isn't there, or you can't roleplay, but the gameplay is not centered on those aspects. It is instead based on your stats. So that's where you have to make a decision.

All races could be on completely equal footing and any race can do any job just as well as the next guy (Guild Wars 2). TBH I dislike this approach, I have a hard time feeling immersed in a world where a 3 foot tall cutesy little Lalafell is just as effective as a hulking mass of a man from the Highland Hyur. I remember watching an Ul'dah cut-scene where the two little Lalafell brothers literally threw two men, 3 times their size, out of the miners guild. I had to facepalm. But that's just my opinion and personal taste. The only time this is really bad from a gameplay stand point is when you add in PvP, as it can be much more difficult to target the smaller PCs, so they have an unfair advantage.

The extreme opposite is where racial benefits are so glaring that you are at a numerical disadvantage if you select the wrong race for a specific job. Which is the start of creating that cookie-cutter BS, where everyone is the same thing and specs in this way otherwise you get kicked out of groups or not invited at all. This can also kill any uniqueness in a character and make for a rather dull experience.

I'm guessing that they will remove the differences in stats for the races, kinda goes along with the theme of adding the Man'qote and FemRoegadyn (need to come up with a better word for female roegadyn). I may not like it, but I have to admit it at least makes it so that people can play the way they want to play. If that keeps people playing then it's a good thing.

[Dionysi]

I understand the perspective that having all the races statistically the same allows for a more open and "fair" field, but like some have said, the feeling of uniqueness i.e importance seems to drift away.

If anyone remembers from FFXI, even if Galkas had the best most HP and VIT, did that stop any other race from becoming a PLD or WAR? It didn't - I saw countless Taru PLDs, and plenty of them tanking endgame bosses, np - the Taru had less HP, plenty of MP but still filled the roll fine. I think the only job which might have truly suffered from this circumstance was Galka Summoners - but I still saw Galka RDM and BLM, regardless of their lack of statistical advantage.

When it comes to choosing a race, many people choose, right away, for the appearance. But shouldn't there be some other determining factor in our decisions? And who picks a Galka saying "What a great mage I'll be!" ? People tend to choose race/class combos from the start, too. Will there be racial abilities, at the least?

[Ebyl]

So...even though there was a difference in stats, all races could still do everything. And how did that prevent uniqueness from drifting away? It appears to have made no difference whatsoever except in your mind.

If you want your character to be unique, do so through how they look, act, etc.

This post has been edited by Ebyl: 28 December 2012 - 08:51 AM

[Dionysi]

Ebyl, on 28 December 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

So...even though there was a difference in stats, all races could still do everything. And how did that prevent uniqueness from drifting away? It appears to have made no difference whatsoever except in your mind.

If you want your character to be unique, do so through how they look, act, etc.

The thing is Taru PLDs were unique - they had a small HP pool but a large MP pool to draw from to cure themselves and or others, in a sense healing themselves so much it was as if they had just as much HP as another -- the thing was the Taru was still a Taru, that is small, with a small amount of HP and Vitality. Galka BLM were the opposite: the image of a beefy caster. What made this great was that it made sense. Sure a Galka BLM doesn't dish out the strongest Fire IV or for as often, but if he pulls hate he is gonna eat it like a Galka should.

So it did make a difference, far beyond my mind -- it made each race a choice more meaningful than "I like cats". The beauty was that people weren't limited (like WoW, where if you pick a certain race you can't play certain classes), but that you, no matter what role you were in, exemplified your race -- when people saw a Galka it came with certain values and indeed a certain aesthetic. In this new world of "everyone is the same except their gear", no player has a presence beyond their gear, and even less of a presence before you /check them.

And in reference to the elite players only wanting the "elite" versions of certain classes/races (i.e WE ONLY WANT GALKA PLDS!!!!), well... let them have their elite versions. One of the greatest parts about FFXI is the community that is created, and the friendship of linkshells - I can't tell you how many times a random mish-mosh of my LS got together and downed Byaku or Kirin and had even more fun for it. The elite can be elite, but the hardcore and heavy casual players will have the fun of experimentation and "working with what you got"

When stats are in harmony with the race possessing them, what we have is a game with more depth that requires the player to ask more questions about their decision of choosing a character. Believe me, if a person wants to play a Mi'quote, they are going to play a Mi'quote regardless of what stat benefits it gives. But if someone likes the though of being a hulking Roegaydn because they want to be the meatiest meat wall there is, they could have that option and if they have a change of heart later on, well all the jobs and classes are still open to them.

But then what meathook said comes back around... "I'm guessing that they will remove the differences in stats for the races, kinda goes along with the theme of adding the Man'qote and FemRoegadyn (need to come up with a better word for female roegadyn). I may not like it, but I have to admit it at least makes it so that people can play the way they want to play. If that keeps people playing then it's a good thing."

If it keeps people playing, it is a good thing indeed, but like meathook... I don't like it either!

[Colt47]

Oh generalization is a horrible idea and it's something that should be avoided for the sake of asymmetrical balance (which makes things interesting for the players when it comes to options: Do I play something that can compensate for low HP through health regeneration or play something with tons of HP? What about better accuracy with ranged weapons or more power with melee weapons?). There's also counter play, but that is a somewhat different subject.

[Aenomaly]

I agree with Dionyse I think keeping the stat differences are good. Having differences in stats doesn't limit players from choosing the class that they prefered, certainly some would be detered, those were usually the min/maxers wanting to maximize every aspect of their character and that is what they enjoyed. Otheres enjoyed playing a class regardless of what race they chose and realized that their may have been limitations based upon such a choice, and this added depth to the game. There were those that played just fine with the limitations and even demonstrated their mastery of a particular class because they negated the differences and showed how well they knew the game and class.

I am for ffxiv but this i believe should stay in as well as anima, i believe in certain limitations because it adds a touch difficulty and makes it necessary to learn game to a different degree.

Aeno

[Ebyl]

So I say again...make your characters unique through their appearance, actions, etc. If all races were able to adequately do all jobs, despite their racial differences, then they were essentially the same in terms of game progression mechanics. If having your character be unique and meaningful can only be done through racial stats, well, then I just don't know what to tell you except, "lol."

[Colt47]

Ebyl, on 29 December 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

So I say again...make your characters unique through their appearance, actions, etc. If all races were able to adequately do all jobs, despite their racial differences, then they were essentially the same in terms of game progression mechanics. If having your character be unique and meaningful can only be done through racial stats, well, then I just don't know what to tell you except, "lol."

I don't think you are understanding the implications of what you are stating. You are advocating universal cookie cutter classes because as long as you can make yourself LOOK unique, you're perfectly happy. That's just not a good path to take in an MMO. With asymmetrical balancing, it's possible to have races with different stats, that could viably play any class, yet also play those classes differently from each other. That could potentially differentiate FFXIV in a positive manner from the slew of WoW clones under different brand names.

[meathooks333]

I think Ebyl is referring directly to FFXI or a hypothetical game that mimics its use of the racial stat differences. Where all races were certainly capable of doing their jobs IIRC. Just that some were at a minor disadvantage i.e. a Tarutaru PLD with a low health pool. Not sure how people felt about that in FFXI end-game as I never quite reached it. But as I remember the stat differences weren't a huge problem. So why even bother having them? Was it truly more effective if your Tarutaru PLD could cast an extra spell? Was it that much more difficult for a WHM to keep you alive?

In short did playing a different race actually and meaningfully change the way you played your job, and was that acceptable for end-game content?

I think ideally it'd be nice to have this situation, where racial differences allowed for equal but not similar playstyle for all jobs. Like what I noted above about the pen and paper RPGs. It would take a lot of work and would create a hell of a lot of balancing issues to be resolved, but would make for some fun gameplay and facilitate character's fitting into their roles more smoothly.

But it will most likely end up as it is with GW2 where a Norn Warrior is no stronger than an Asura of the same class. I can say after having played the game for 5 months I feel absolutely no uniqueness in my character aside from his profession and weapon choice. I went so far as to get a "legendary" weapon which, like everything else in the game, is completely aesthetic. Putting everyone on equal footing will kill uniqueness in characters.

[Ebyl]

Colt47, on 29 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

I don't think you are understanding the implications of what you are stating. You are advocating universal cookie cutter classes because as long as you can make yourself LOOK unique, you're perfectly happy. That's just not a good path to take in an MMO. With asymmetrical balancing, it's possible to have races with different stats, that could viably play any class, yet also play those classes differently from each other. That could potentially differentiate FFXIV in a positive manner from the slew of WoW clones under different brand names.

No, I don't think you understand what I'm stating. At all.

I'm pointing out the hilarity of people getting so worked up over something like racial stats as a means to make their characters unique, when true character uniqueness comes from the avenues I have given - behavior, looks, actions, etc. If you want your character to be unique, roleplay your ******* character. If you don't, then what are you (that being a general you) pissing on about?

And btw, obviously all races being equal IS a good path to take for an MMO, because there are plenty of successful ones that do it. Asymmetrical balancing is an incredibly difficult task. It's no minor inconvenience for a dev team when it's an MMO - it's a major, major obstacle. Very often the time/effort/money is simply not worth it, especially since it causes potential problems going forward with each addition to the game.

Edit - Oh, and one more thing. An MMO that has universal, cookie cutter classes (as in everyone's total toon ends up being exactly the same regarding gear, abilities, etc) has failed at game mechanics. It has nothing to do with racial stats, lol.

And don't forget... Your "unique" character with your different racial stats will be exactly the same as 50k other toons of the same race/gender. Ooops. Not so unique in the end, is it? Unless you do what actually makes a character unique, which is RP...

This post has been edited by Ebyl: 29 December 2012 - 10:15 PM

[ArkhamNative]

But... there aren't any "toons" in FF MMOs.

I can understand calling a WoW character a "toon". They're like only 5 polygons with eye-gouging toddler colors and look very looney.* But I started with FFXI, and the realism of my characters and depth of the game's story makes it seem like an insult to call them "toons". Kind of like some people get annoyed that anime gets called a "cartoon" by parents or whomever.

Oh, as for on-topic:
Race differences in stats were kind of neat in FFXI, and actually existed in FF14 1.0 (though you could totally change them within the first few levels of assigning stat points, and they were very watered-down). But the problem is that there were some FFXI players who actually believed there was only one "right" way to play each job. For example, they would never consider a WHM galka, even one who had cleared the same mission half a dozen times. (No, I never played galka.)

Although it seems dull to have little or no stat differences, it's kind of crazy to expect much reality when lalafells/taru and roegadyn/galka can wield the same exact weapon and wear the same exact armor, gear showing cleavage and midriff gets any defense rating, and countless other impossibilities we ignore.

Alpha only had only 2 character choices (Hume M and Miqo'te F) and SE is waiting to balance battle in beta, so we still don't know if or how much stat differences will exist. I won't mind either way, as long as it's not broken. (In FF14 v1 you could concentrate all ~160 assignable attr points to STR, for example, but get only a few % extra damage).

__
*Yeah, I know the old cartoons were "looney tunes", but it sounds the same, so I still get points. :)

[Aenomaly]

But ebyl you arn't realizing that this is a common feature in many mmos that stand out. WoW limites what classes can be played by the choice of your race, which is something that I would dislike. Dwarve paladins for example had their stone form which removed bleed/poison affects and upped their defense, now the defense was a minor factor and the game has come such a long way, but in the beginning raiding that helped especially in plaguelands and dungeons from that area. I feel limiting the classes based upon race wouldn't be very ff, but making differences through racial choices is much more unique, while still allowing everyone the opportunity to play what class they want.

LOTRO had interesting racial differences that I liked very much because there were even negative aspects to races. Such as the humans having a weak will and as a result they would be susceptible to certain attacks. I liked the fact that they had put limitations on certain races based upon the books, it helped with the immersion. I still couldn't play the game for hardly a day it just seems so boring to me, which is why I can't wait for FFXIV, I need an mmo that will hold my attention and get me involved.

Saying there are plenty of other mmos out there that have no differences between race choices other than asthetics I believe is not a positive seeing as so many other mmos are just plain terrible. Granted racial differences may not be much in terms of creating a huge differences but it is in the minor details where people will take notice and those minor details build up. Plus this would be a positive aspect to keep from FFXI i feel keeping positive aspects of other mmos, including our own is a way to built a truly unique and strong new mmo.

Aeno