[Lux]

Looks great.

I hope there will be a party system though. Looks like this is going to be solo like every other mmo out there.

[Jackel]

jaydenabzoluut, on 09 December 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Looks great.

I hope there will be a party system though. Looks like this is going to be solo like every other mmo out there.

Nah, the majority of the content is designed around party play, it's just not put in for the alpha.

[IQuitFFXIVCore]

Jackel, on 09 December 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Nah, the majority of the content is designed around party play, it's just not put in for the alpha.

That we don't know the game is in alpha. What we know for sure is you can solo to level cap easily and quests will grant you the exp killing mobs in the field will not( before anyone jumps and says killing mobs no exp at all? didn't mean that but leveling up killing mobs will prolly be torture and quests will be very fast leveling).

Party play would be like every other singleplayermmorpg out there at end game, dungeons, NMs.


There will be PUG(pick up groups), LS parties, free company parties, from my previous experience from release of ffxiv till last save good groups won't let you join them unless you have great gear(they will ask for stats) and shitload of matteria on your gear(you will need countless gil to get these), people that had these were playing 24/7 or at least anytime I logged didn't matter how random that said person was online playing.
Pick up groups were hit and miss but most times ended up in wipes, I was lucky once I got in a JP group and got 14 ifrit wins in a raw without any deaths.

See how grouping is in any other mmorpg and I bet you will be same in FFXIV since that's the route its heading.

This post has been edited by Kenshin Himura: 09 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

[Orophin]

Kenshin Himura, on 08 December 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

Wow like quests promote solo and out of all mmorpg I played only FFXI was true mmorpg 90% of the time I was in party or alliance, the rest of the games I was maybe 10% in any kind of group they really feel like single player games with chat and even chat is one of the worst full of none sense.

For what it's worth, all major story points will require a group, along with all the endgame activities and such. Is it really such a bad thing that you're not REQUIRED to rely on other people to get through one of the most trivial points of the game, which is leveling up? I didn't quote your games played, but sad to say, I don't think the MMO genre is ever going to revert back to the style of play that FFXI and older games offered. If you can't evolve with the genre, your best bet is to just stay with some game that can offer you that experience, if they even exist anymore, because even FFXI isn't based around group leveling anymore.

be_hunted, on 08 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

I'm thinking about the basic necessity for a party which all FF games have. Remember RPGs on nes and snes? Breath of Fire, Earthbound, Tales, DQ, the Secret games,ect. Parties and strategies were necessary for the majority of fights. I understand the need for streamlining the experience, but don't hold my hand--it defeats the purpose of playing a game altogether.

FFXI got some of its inspiration from single player games I'm sure, but the big difference between these games and FFXI/FFXIV is that the latter are MMOs, which are games that if built like traditional JRPGs REQUIRE you to group with people to do practically everything. There needs to be solo content because people don't always want to have to rely on others to do things.

WoW made this work by standardizing quest-based leveling. Vanilla WoW was still made with kind of the old school concepts in mind; they made quests for both solo AND group based content. Ever try to solo Hogger at level? (in Vanillia) Damn near impossible. Each zone also had quests that usually led you to a dungeon, which again, required a group to complete.

The point I'm trying to get across here is I'm sure FFXIV will have a good mix of both solo and group content, but I think we need to get away from the mentality that a group is required for everything.

HavokfireHero, on 09 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

It's still working off of the WoW method of more or less standing in 1 spot and having the game decide if you dodge it or not.

The slower combat style is a bit new to me, and I have not ever played FF14 so I dunno how it would factor in for me. You apparently get one attack every 3-5 seconds not factoring in cast timers. Not sure if the summoner/arcanist pets help fill the gap between recharge times but FF13 got a bit tedious even doing 5-6 attacks per rotation. Just not a huge fan of standing in one place and waiting a few seconds before I can do another attack ...

FF games have traditionally never been action games where you actively dodge attacks.

Also, I'm guessing you never played FF11, but if you think this game is slow, FF11 and FF14 1.0 were worse. You had to stand around for 3 seconds just to land an auto-attack to give you TP which you could THEN use one of those WS they show in the video. So you're talking about 15 seconds just to use a WS. Then, you had cooldowns of like 20-30s on each WS so you had to usually wait that long even if you had TP before you could use them again. I'm used to the slower pace of combat, but I'm open minded about it being faster paced too. I played WoW, so it's not a foreign concept to me.

Keep in mind, you'll also tend to get an auto-attack in between waiting on your GCD to refresh, and I believe Yoshi-P said somewhere that the GCD will take less time to refresh as you level up, and through gear. I think the GCD with all your WS being on the same cooldown is their way of still simulating turn-based content. With the pace of combat being increased and with the server infrastructure improvements, I'm expecting to see a lot more dynamic content.

[IzzeFF]

Orophin, on 10 December 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

For what it's worth, all major story points will require a group, along with all the endgame activities and such. Is it really such a bad thing that you're not REQUIRED to rely on other people to get through one of the most trivial points of the game, which is leveling up? I didn't quote your games played, but sad to say, I don't think the MMO genre is ever going to revert back to the style of play that FFXI and older games offered. If you can't evolve with the genre, your best bet is to just stay with some game that can offer you that experience, if they even exist anymore, because even FFXI isn't based around group leveling anymore.
content.

mmo rpg. massive multiplayer online role playing game.
not massive singleplayer online role playing game.
single player in an area with many seems to reflect some of our community; the unwillingness and disinterest
to work or group with others. solo time is great. I like it alot. what happens when a group unites to achieve a common goal.
-shrug-

MSORPG NOTHX. MMORPG YESPLZ.

[Jackel]

IzzeFF, on 10 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

mmo rpg. massive multiplayer online role playing game.
not massive singleplayer online role playing game.
single player in an area with many seems to reflect some of our community; the unwillingness and disinterest
to work or group with others. solo time is great. I like it alot. what happens when a group unites to achieve a common goal.
-shrug-

MSORPG NOTHX. MMORPG YESPLZ.

I guess I don't know how we should classify Guild Wars 2 then in regards to it's success. I was reading earlier it was named "Times" game of the year. If it's not a single player game in an MMO environment I don't know what it is. It offers the "best" of both words. Solo gameplay for those who prefer it as well as group oriented content for those who seek a greater challenge and reward.

As I've said since day one on this site, Square Enix is a business and their job is to appeal and attract as wide a subscriber base as possible. If that means taking party play and making it go the way of the dodo that's what they'll do.

I just don't understand why people continue to try and break down the differences between the genres. You can solo to cap in virtually every MMO out there. Plenty of grindfest style games exist - Lots of sandbox options do also. There's enough out there for everyone to find one that makes them happy yet still people latch onto one and complain that "this" SPECIFIC one doesn't have what they're looking for. Yoshi-P has been nothing but open and forthcoming about all of the things we're now seeing and yet people act surprised. We're still in alpha stage and yet the criticisms about group content are lingering around the minority who wish nothing more than to see all single player aspects of the game stamped out.

I'm all for bringing back that sense of danger and accomplishment..but not if it's going to turn away more potential players than it keeps.
If people want to solo in XIV so be it. It's their choice and doesn't dampen the experience of others in the slightest.

[meathooks333]

Just because you can solo to cap doesn't mean that that's all there is to do. And I'd like to reiterate what I've said earlier, it's SE and Final Fantasy, there will be extremely difficult group content and lots of it. However, if that's all the game had there'd be no one playing to group with! You need that solo content to keep subscribers occupied. Occupied subscribers pay subs, which helps pay the people working night and day to provide new group content. See what I did there?

I think Orophin brought up some really excellent points about vanilla WoW. With Hogger and the "solo" quests leading into group content, the game had a very natural flow to get players grouping. Jackal brought up GW2, which I can honestly say has done really well with combining group and solo play. You just /join a group you see doing an event and when you're done you can either stick with them and do something else or go back to soloing. Things are changing, and I think Yoshi-P is aware of these things. He's trying to keep the most successful aspects of the game as it was, and replace the poorly received mechanics with better ones that are tried and true. I can get behind that.

[be_hunted]

Spazz, on 09 December 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Not to mention also that *MOST* if not all Alpha and Beta tests give players increased stats and exp gain so you can go through content faster for more efficient testing.

Yeah that makes sense actually. I retract my previous criticism (even though I acknowledged that all the balancing in the game isn't complete). Not sure if the amount of players in a small area affects this too. It might but alot of the screens I've seen don't have too many players. The guy might have even had a healer with him...or lots of potions. That one quest reward was 15 potions lol.

[be_hunted]

Orophin, on 10 December 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

For what it's worth, all major story points will require a group, along with all the endgame activities and such. Is it really such a bad thing that you're not REQUIRED to rely on other people to get through one of the most trivial points of the game, which is leveling up? I didn't quote your games played, but sad to say, I don't think the MMO genre is ever going to revert back to the style of play that FFXI and older games offered. If you can't evolve with the genre, your best bet is to just stay with some game that can offer you that experience, if they even exist anymore, because even FFXI isn't based around group leveling anymore.


FFXI got some of its inspiration from single player games I'm sure, but the big difference between these games and FFXI/FFXIV is that the latter are MMOs, which are games that if built like traditional JRPGs REQUIRE you to group with people to do practically everything. There needs to be solo content because people don't always want to have to rely on others to do things.

The point I'm trying to get across here is I'm sure FFXIV will have a good mix of both solo and group content, but I think we need to get away from the mentality that a group is required for everything.


FF games have traditionally never been action games where you actively dodge attacks.

Also, I'm guessing you never played FF11, but if you think this game is slow, FF11 and FF14 1.0 were worse. You had to stand around for 3 seconds just to land an auto-attack to give you TP which you could THEN use one of those WS they show in the video. So you're talking about 15 seconds just to use a WS. Then, you had cooldowns of like 20-30s on each WS so you had to usually wait that long even if you had TP before you could use them again. I'm used to the slower pace of combat, but I'm open minded about it being faster paced too. I played WoW, so it's not a foreign concept to me.

Keep in mind, you'll also tend to get an auto-attack in between waiting on your GCD to refresh, and I believe Yoshi-P said somewhere that the GCD will take less time to refresh as you level up, and through gear. I think the GCD with all your WS being on the same cooldown is their way of still simulating turn-based content. With the pace of combat being increased and with the server infrastructure improvements, I'm expecting to see a lot more dynamic content.

I definitely agree that a party shouldn't always be necessary (days of my life were spent waiting in XI). Leveling solo is fine really, but I just hope this doesn't lead to a lot of people not understanding how to party when the time comes. I also hope there's a solid amount of group content because it feels more rewarding than solo for me.

As for the GCD, I think it's fine for the magic and melee. People need to look at how long the animations for casting and weapon skills take. If you factor those in the wait is very short. Even then, if you can do what you said and reduce the count with agi/speed/spell casting rate stats, that could be pretty intense later on in the game. I still feel like the ability spamming for melee might be a bit over the top though. I understand that melee was less exciting before, and if this system is balanced well, it can really add to the fun factor for a melee player. I can't help but find the constant animations with flying around and fire and stuff excessive though. It seems like FF is trying to be (more) over the top ever since XIII. Eh I'll still play regardless.

[Orophin]

be_hunted, on 12 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

I definitely agree that a party shouldn't always be necessary (days of my life were spent waiting in XI). Leveling solo is fine really, but I just hope this doesn't lead to a lot of people not understanding how to party when the time comes. I also hope there's a solid amount of group content because it feels more rewarding than solo for me.

Interestingly enough, this was kind of an issue in 1.0, partly due to a decent search system coming in so late to the game. By the time it came in, people were used to just shouting for parties that that became the norm. The other part of it was the original storyline was designed to be soloed, even by gatherers and crafters. Yoshi-P shifted this focus when he took over and started creating more group content as the game was updated. I expect to see a good amount of group content for all the significant story related stuff in ARR.

Hopefully the search system in ARR is a bit more intuitive that people will actually use it like they did in FF11. There's also the content matching system which will pair people up in between worlds, so I don't think I'm too concerned about people finding groups for things.

[ArkhamNative]

Plus even in FFXI, levels 1-10 (or more) were usually solo except for lolz or buddies. You were just learning how to play the job and didn't have many decent abilities yet. "Lv 2 {Party} {East Ronfaure} {Do you need it?} 1/6" ??

As much as I liked to solo, I think one of the flaws of FF14 v1 was that it allowed too much solo (even main story !?!). It made me realize FFXI's need for group not only made shy types shout or flag up, but also made others more willing to help, as a sort of payback for the help they themselves received. With actual content at launch (like low-level dungeons, etc), ARR should drive more players to group than v1 ever did.

[IzzeFF]

Jackel, on 10 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I guess I don't know how we should classify Guild Wars 2 then in regards to it's success.

I'm all for bringing back that sense of danger and accomplishment..but not if it's going to turn away more potential players than it keeps.
If people want to solo in XIV so be it. It's their choice and doesn't dampen the experience of others in the slightest.

Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:50 PM
Jackel, on 06 December 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:
You show me someone who completed Final Fantasy XI missions and quests without using a guide and I'll maybe lean your way a little bit on this topic. People use the resources they have available, nothing changes except nowadays it's built into the game rather than a strategy guide.

Throwing people into the wind without knowing what to do is not what Yoshi-P want to achieve.



IzzeFF: Kenshin didnt mean or denote "throwing people into the wind without knowing what to do"... wow. He simply stated a preference for a challenge, a quest, not a complete manual on what exactly to do.

another misinterpretaton by you, you sometimes change ppl's words instead of rewording, not too constructive for debates or discussions. I simply said, solo play is great, and that i like it. Solo in FFXIV is fantastic. Never stated that solo has no place in FFXIV. Restating though, this is an MMO, a multiplayer, not a single player. Its all good.

This post has been edited by IzzeFF: 12 December 2012 - 04:34 PM

[be_hunted]

ArkhamNative, on 12 December 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Plus even in FFXI, levels 1-10 (or more) were usually solo except for lolz or buddies. You were just learning how to play the job and didn't have many decent abilities yet. "Lv 2 {Party} {East Ronfaure} {Do you need it?} 1/6" ??

As much as I liked to solo, I think one of the flaws of FF14 v1 was that it allowed too much solo (even main story !?!). It made me realize FFXI's need for group not only made shy types shout or flag up, but also made others more willing to help, as a sort of payback for the help they themselves received. With actual content at launch (like low-level dungeons, etc), ARR should drive more players to group than v1 ever did.

Yeah.. that's part of what I was getting at. Groups build skills but they also build an enjoyable community. I think it will be alot better than 1.0 for group content. Getting tired of waiting!