[Ralsu]

I hadn't thought about that approach. It sounds like your advice is to tell those with fears to kindly get out of the way. And actually, I wouldn't recommend these two gentlemen for beta anyway. They work in the press and are far too busy to truly beta test. But I might try to sell them on the game at launch!

[Baltharus]

here is the thing with me... i work 2 full time jobs. so i cant spend long periods of time trying to get into a group.. this is what turned me off to FFXI.. In WoW i could log on play for an hour or two get some quests done and makes some progress. and on my occasional off day i was able to get into a raid and have some fun :D i dont think an MMO should be entirely solo but i think that to force grouping does keep people at bay. I stopped playing wow not just because it became too "easy" or that the high end raid content was to "hard" but because after 4 years and 2 xpacs... its still the same game.. the same areas.. the same basis.. this is the main reason i have become so interested in FFXIV. Its something new and made by a completely different company and isn't a WoW clone. I do think that there does need to be some challenge in any game you play, but personally i just dont have the time to have to wait on a group before i can do anything. and it really sucks when you finally do get a group and you have 30 min before you have to log.

basically what im trying to say is that there needs to be a balance. a way to solo and make progress when you dont have time to dedicate and a way to group and progress when you do have the time. i hate to make the comparison but WoW did this pretty well with solo quests and a plethora of instances as you progress through the levels.

[Grimix]

I really doubt that a lot of the fears people have associated with FFXIV are really valid. This game would more then likely not be too casual nor to hardcore.

First off let me say that I'm a hardcore gamer>.> I had hours to blow on the game and did, had a few 75's in FFXI, and in FFXIV I prob play just as hardcore as I did in FFXI. The thing that would sell me would be how they balance casual and hardcore within this game. I don't want the grind to be easy or short, I'm a firm believer that it should be as much about the grind to cap as the actual endgame at cap itself.

I have to say that a lot of people probably misconstrued what a good trip to cap is like. EVERYONE is guilty of this, wanting to be at cap as fast as possible. I'm all for content that I can do to advance in a short period of time, but I will say a lot of people look at some content as time wasters, yet they complain that they want to advance. I will say that FFXI introduced a lot of things meant to break up the grind to cap, whether we the players realized it or not. Things like NM's, Genkai, quest and crafting added a lot of things to do while on the trip to cap that many people viewed as annoying, and would rather be handed easy exp to constitute as advancing which really saddens me.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a way to advance solo(albeit extremely slower then if you were to pt) because there should, but I do implore players to consider the full spectrum. But there should be content for players to do in 30 mins, just so that they can get something done, as long as the party dynamic remains the focus point of the game.

I'd still love it if it took me 5-6 months to get to cap per class/job, but for a casual player it would take longer then that maybe up to a year. But the thing is this shouldn't be a problem with that, as long as content option for casual players is there. That was a fatal flaw in FFXI, only a few jobs could really solo effectively. An option to solo won't hurt the party base of the game as long as benefits for partying were significantly better.

[Baltharus]

Grimix, i totally agree. it can be balanced with Party Benifits being a lil higher. I can understand and would have fun with solo being doable but slower. :D

[sidion]

Grimix, on 03 February 2010 - 10:58 AM, said:

I really doubt that a lot of the fears people have associated with FFXIV are really valid. This game would more then likely not be too casual nor to hardcore.

First off let me say that I'm a hardcore gamer>.> I had hours to blow on the game and did, had a few 75's in FFXI, and in FFXIV I prob play just as hardcore as I did in FFXI. The thing that would sell me would be how they balance casual and hardcore within this game. I don't want the grind to be easy or short, I'm a firm believer that it should be as much about the grind to cap as the actual endgame at cap itself.

I have to say that a lot of people probably misconstrued what a good trip to cap is like. EVERYONE is guilty of this, wanting to be at cap as fast as possible. I'm all for content that I can do to advance in a short period of time, but I will say a lot of people look at some content as time wasters, yet they complain that they want to advance. I will say that FFXI introduced a lot of things meant to break up the grind to cap, whether we the players realized it or not. Things like NM's, Genkai, quest and crafting added a lot of things to do while on the trip to cap that many people viewed as annoying, and would rather be handed easy exp to constitute as advancing which really saddens me.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a way to advance solo(albeit extremely slower then if you were to pt) because there should, but I do implore players to consider the full spectrum. But there should be content for players to do in 30 mins, just so that they can get something done, as long as the party dynamic remains the focus point of the game.

I'd still love it if it took me 5-6 months to get to cap per class/job, but for a casual player it would take longer then that maybe up to a year. But the thing is this shouldn't be a problem with that, as long as content option for casual players is there. That was a fatal flaw in FFXI, only a few jobs could really solo effectively. An option to solo won't hurt the party base of the game as long as benefits for partying were significantly better.

Total agreement here Grim. I've moved away from the hardcore attitude I had with FFXI to a more casual friendly outlook. Don't get me wrong I don't mind a grind/raid if I get a few hours here and there, but again as was mentioned I would hope there would be ways to utilize those 30-60 mins you sometimes are forced to squeeze in during days you can't play for long.
Aside from that I approach the game the way Apricoth mentioned, pretty much without fear and confident SE will be creating a whole new beast, without expectation of content/gameplay outside of what has already been mentioned. It allows me to leave expectation at the door and enjoy whatever is produced based on it;s own merits.

[Phaeton]

Grimix, on 03 February 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

I really doubt that a lot of the fears people have associated with FFXIV are really valid. This game would more then likely not be too casual nor to hardcore.

First off let me say that I'm a hardcore gamer>.> I had hours to blow on the game and did, had a few 75's in FFXI, and in FFXIV I prob play just as hardcore as I did in FFXI. The thing that would sell me would be how they balance casual and hardcore within this game. I don't want the grind to be easy or short, I'm a firm believer that it should be as much about the grind to cap as the actual endgame at cap itself.

I have to say that a lot of people probably misconstrued what a good trip to cap is like. EVERYONE is guilty of this, wanting to be at cap as fast as possible. I'm all for content that I can do to advance in a short period of time, but I will say a lot of people look at some content as time wasters, yet they complain that they want to advance. I will say that FFXI introduced a lot of things meant to break up the grind to cap, whether we the players realized it or not. Things like NM's, Genkai, quest and crafting added a lot of things to do while on the trip to cap that many people viewed as annoying, and would rather be handed easy exp to constitute as advancing which really saddens me.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a way to advance solo(albeit extremely slower then if you were to pt) because there should, but I do implore players to consider the full spectrum. But there should be content for players to do in 30 mins, just so that they can get something done, as long as the party dynamic remains the focus point of the game.

I'd still love it if it took me 5-6 months to get to cap per class/job, but for a casual player it would take longer then that maybe up to a year. But the thing is this shouldn't be a problem with that, as long as content option for casual players is there. That was a fatal flaw in FFXI, only a few jobs could really solo effectively. An option to solo won't hurt the party base of the game as long as benefits for partying were significantly better.

agree with some of it but i don't know how you can talk about any kind of balance and then say that one style of play should be vastly superior to another style of play. there needs to be equal benefits to both, whats the point of wasting time creating more content and more options if they are useless in comparison to their counterparts. now, clearly the ability to not have to find a party when you solo is a huge benefit to that play style and can be weighed as such when you equate the two options but i think you are a little too extreme when you say you think one should be significantly better than the other.

solo play and group play should be equal in terms of the benefits received, the benefits should just be different.

[Grimix]

Phaeton, on 06 February 2010 - 04:38 AM, said:

agree with some of it but i don't know how you can talk about any kind of balance and then say that one style of play should be vastly superior to another style of play. there needs to be equal benefits to both, whats the point of wasting time creating more content and more options if they are useless in comparison to their counterparts. now, clearly the ability to not have to find a party when you solo is a huge benefit to that play style and can be weighed as such when you equate the two options but i think you are a little too extreme when you say you think one should be significantly better than the other.

solo play and group play should be equal in terms of the benefits received, the benefits should just be different.

It's mostly based on the amount of time that a player put's into the game. And grouping should yield far better results then soloing since this game is mainly about grouping with the option to solo, and not the other way around. Casual content is really only for people with little time, but they can't expect to level as fast as someone who devotes 5 hours a day lol:P

[Phaeton]

Grimix, on 06 February 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

It's mostly based on the amount of time that a player put's into the game. And grouping should yield far better results then soloing since this game is mainly about grouping with the option to solo, and not the other way around. Casual content is really only for people with little time, but they can't expect to level as fast as someone who devotes 5 hours a day lol:P

i think we are going to have to agree to disagree... why would SE even waste time creating content if the only people using it are those who don't like to group (which are the vast minority when it comes to FFXI and will probably be the same to a lesser degree in FFXIV). That doesn't make sense. There needs to be something to draw all people into doing it, both those who like to group most of the time and those who like to solo most of the time. So while you should be able to go though your entire (for lack of a better word) lvling progression using either play style you will probably find that a mix of the two is best. Btw, just to let you know one style of play isnt anymore hardcore than the other lol. I don't think a person who solo'ed BST all the way up *cough me cough* is any less hardcore than someone who group grinded with a BRD... which i also did. :P

PS. Btw, i agree with you more in this post than in your previous one, since you changed from saying "benefits for partying were significantly better" in your last post to "grouping should yield far better results" in this post. I don't know if you realize the dramatic difference between these two phrases but there is a HUGE difference. As i said before, the ability to not waste time finding a group is a big benefit to solo content and as such the results should almost always favor group play. So now i think the only thing we have to agree to disagree on is how much those results should differ. ^^

Anyways i've said my two cents so peace.

This post has been edited by Phaeton: 06 February 2010 - 01:29 PM

[LadyYuina]

FFXI was truly a grindfest filled with tedious tasks in most things. However, I still enjoyed the game and reaped the most joy out of doing really tough bosses with my entire linkshell. Those were the good, old, fun days. XD

But, it didn't help though (at the beginning) to make things so difficult to do, even at a low level. Hopefully, they will change things around a bit this time...

[Vayne]

Actually, SE corrected many of their mistakes and people just hear the same crap about how its impossible to lvl and stuff, how it was in the beggining. The truth is leveling is soo freaking easy now. Right now im harcore/casually playing FFXI and its so easy to level. Perhaps It's to early for me to make any further statements but even my FFXI veteren friend is amazed by how easy it is to progress now. Of course there is still certain things that SE over looked but im confident that FFXIV will truly be csaual friendly and make things for the most part, alot less tedious and time consuming. I'm also hopeful that they will fix drop rates and try to create a game that will not be so difficult to obtain equipment that it would drastically affect the in game economy. Which to this day is still kind of bad but yeah...

[The Robotic Robot]

There's no denying that FFXI was a grindfest, but the most frightening thing of all is that it doesn't really seem like it was the game's fault. Everywhere you go, you can find evidence of how an area was meant to be swept through as a full party of lower levels, rather than solo farmed ten levels later.

The starting areas are a good example of this. The structure and flow of the areas suggest that doing the rank missions weren't supposed to be soloed, rather, six people would all get the same achievement at the same time, and they'd be low enough levels to be leveling up while they did quests and missions. There wasn't supposed to be a grind, but people couldn't accept that.

By the time the beta opened up, the Japanese had already found the places to camp and grind, and it was the only way for anyone to play and have people play with them. My fear is that game design can't save an MMO from the Japanese, and now us, because we too have no concept of how to play an MMO without grinding.

[Requiem]

The Robotic Robot, on 22 February 2010 - 07:36 AM, said:

we too have no concept of how to play an MMO without grinding.

could be that we're approaching a paradigm shift in MMOs?

of which perhaps SE & FFXIV may keep the wheel turning?

This post has been edited by Requiem: 22 February 2010 - 10:02 AM

[The Robotic Robot]

Requiem, on 22 February 2010 - 11:01 AM, said:

could be that we're approaching a paradigm shift in MMOs?

of which perhaps SE & FFXIV may keep the wheel turning?

If that is the case, I would be ecstatic. However, they'd have to have figured something significant out that absolutely no one else has yet; and that's how to make a game that can't be broken.

They'd have to figure out how to make a PL useless, camping and grinding a waste of time, balanced gear and class skills, etc. It's in our nature to find what will give us an unfair advantage and then exploit it to no end. If you don't seek it, someone else will, and you will be made a victim of it in one way or another.

SE would have to imagine every possible way a player could exploit the game and find a creative way to nullify it. Most of all, they'd have to recognize this as a problem in the first place, which, as of right now, doesn't seem to be expressed convincingly enough. Can Square save its fans from themselves? I anxiously await the answer.